1 00:00:00,099 --> 00:00:16,990 [Music] 2 00:00:16,990 --> 00:00:19,990 Herald: So: since the Snowden movies, or 3 00:00:19,990 --> 00:00:24,550 movie, and documentations, we know there were many really, really awesome people 4 00:00:24,550 --> 00:00:31,690 involved in the escape of Edward Snowden. Today, we will hear a little bit more 5 00:00:31,690 --> 00:00:37,139 about the personal sacrifices and big risks these people took to shelter and 6 00:00:37,139 --> 00:00:47,579 protect Edward Snowden. So, first, I will give you Sönke Iwersen. An applause 7 00:00:47,579 --> 00:01:03,749 for him please. He will start the whole thing with a little bit of backstory, 8 00:01:03,749 --> 00:01:09,780 after that we will have Robert Tibbo and live on the screen, Edward Snowden; I'm 9 00:01:09,780 --> 00:01:15,329 looking forward to it. But first, a big applause again for Sönke Iwersen. 10 00:01:15,329 --> 00:01:24,579 *Applause* — Iwersen: Good evening, my name is Sönke Iwersen. 11 00:01:24,579 --> 00:01:31,000 I'm a journalist for the German Handelsblatt, and today the story I will tell 12 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:38,705 you is, you could put it on the motto “No deed, no good deed, goes unpunished”. 13 00:01:38,705 --> 00:01:45,910 In German: “Keine gute Tat bleibt ungestraft”. It’s about 100 years old 14 00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:53,450 and it holds true for Mr. Snowden, who is now still in his exile in Moscow, and whom 15 00:01:53,450 --> 00:01:59,680 Mr. Trump would like to shoot—those are his words. And it also holds true for the 16 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,849 people who've helped Edward Snowden, during a time when nobody able … nobody 17 00:02:04,849 --> 00:02:11,500 else was able to help him. And these people are still suffering under inhuman 18 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:22,610 conditions. You can see them here, I will give you the names in a few seconds. To 19 00:02:22,610 --> 00:02:29,800 start, this is the most famous story that has been told of Edward Snowden. The movie 20 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:39,360 Citizenfour by lawyer Laura Poitras, a very good movie. But there's a hole in the 21 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:52,180 story—let's see. Let's go back for just a few seconds to June 10th, 2013. which is 22 00:02:52,180 --> 00:02:57,230 the first day all of us here have ever heard the name Edward Snowden. It was the 23 00:02:57,230 --> 00:03:05,230 day that his interview was streamed by the Guardian, and he uncovered the massive 24 00:03:05,230 --> 00:03:12,250 surveillance of the US and the entire world by the US government. And their 25 00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:19,660 intelligence systems. And, well, this is the Mira hotel, the interview took place 26 00:03:19,660 --> 00:03:32,150 at that hotel. He was hiding here. In room 1014. This is a scene from the movie where 27 00:03:32,150 --> 00:03:38,011 you can see him just after he realizes that he doesn't know what to do next. He's 28 00:03:38,011 --> 00:03:42,040 just been interviewed. This is the morning after the interview. And the journalists 29 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:47,060 have left—Greenwald has left, he can't go back because people like me, other 30 00:03:47,060 --> 00:03:55,280 journalists have been… they have found him. And they would follow him back to Snowden 31 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,120 if he went back to the hotel. So Laura Poitras is filming this, but she can't 32 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:13,840 help him. And in the movie, there's a skip— there's … it just skips over 14 days. The 33 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:20,720 next famous scene we have all seen is Edward Snowden at the Hong Kong 34 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:26,850 International Airport—he's back actually, holding a ticket to Moscow in 35 00:04:26,850 --> 00:04:33,820 his hand. And that's it. The next time we saw him again was in Moscow … we 36 00:04:33,820 --> 00:04:39,680 saw pictures of him was in Moscow. But that was 14 years later. So I don't know 37 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:45,241 about you, but I was always … had I for a long time I've been wondering—well, how 38 00:04:45,241 --> 00:04:54,760 did he do that? 14 days, the most hunted man on the planet, the NSA, CIA, Hong Kong 39 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:02,170 police, all my colleagues—we're all looking for him, but nobody found him. So 40 00:05:02,170 --> 00:05:11,720 where did he go? And who helped him? And I was lucky enough, two years ago, to meet 41 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:20,650 the people who hid Edward Snowden. It's very … it was hard for me to believe at first 42 00:05:20,650 --> 00:05:28,620 that these people were actually able to do that and … but the next things that happen 43 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:33,220 may be even harder to believe. I'll just introduce them quickly, because we're 44 00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:40,590 coming to the main show in a few minutes. This is Ajit—he's a former Sri Lankan 45 00:05:40,590 --> 00:05:48,520 soldier. He has been stranded in Hong Kong. While he was; his backstory: he 46 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:58,470 was captured by the military, he was tortured, twice, then he was smuggled 47 00:05:58,470 --> 00:06:05,230 into Hong Kong and his smuggler left him without his passport in the middle of 48 00:06:05,230 --> 00:06:10,820 Hong Kong. And Ajit was stranded there and has been stranded there for … I think 49 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:21,360 since 2005 now. And in 2013, he met by pure chance Edward Snowden, who was a 50 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:27,639 refugee at that time, suddenly, himself. And Ajit became Snowden's bodyguard for 51 00:06:27,639 --> 00:06:33,550 those two weeks in Hong Kong. He had military training, there wasn't any 52 00:06:33,550 --> 00:06:41,210 shootouts, but Ajit made sure that Snowden stayed safe and was not found and 53 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:50,840 detected. This is Supun—another refugee. He's also from Sri Lanka, he was also 54 00:06:50,840 --> 00:07:03,530 tortured, beaten by the police and fled to Hong Kong. His wife Nadeeka—she was 55 00:07:03,530 --> 00:07:08,840 tortured, raped, beaten, when she went to the police, she was sent out and beaten in 56 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:16,889 front of the police station again. So she also fled, and in Hong Kong she met Supun 57 00:07:16,889 --> 00:07:25,090 and they had these children. Sethumdi, the daughter on the right, and Dinath, he was 58 00:07:25,090 --> 00:07:36,220 just maybe six months when I met him two years ago. This is Vanessa. Vanessa is a 59 00:07:36,220 --> 00:07:46,440 Filipina—she was also raped in … at her home. The police wouldn't help her because 60 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:54,080 her rapist had political connections, and after trying several times, she finally 61 00:07:54,080 --> 00:08:01,520 made it to Hong Kong where she applied for asylum and never got it. Asylum seekers in 62 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:07,270 Hong Kong are not like asylum seekers here —they have no rights at all, hardly any 63 00:08:07,270 --> 00:08:12,320 help, they're not allowed to work, they get food stamps. But for example, no stamps 64 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:18,390 for diapers if you have children, small children. So what do you do if you don't get … 65 00:08:18,390 --> 00:08:21,160 You're not allowed to work, you're not allowed to steal. 66 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,370 If you're caught working, you can be jailed for 22 months. 67 00:08:25,370 --> 00:08:29,420 Which is longer than you can be jailed for drug trafficking. 68 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:41,380 That's her daughter, Nadeeka. Vanessa did a lot for Edward Snowden. She 69 00:08:41,380 --> 00:08:49,980 would … she hid his passport—she cooked for him, she brought in the newspaper, and 70 00:08:49,980 --> 00:09:00,730 she and her daughter sang birthday songs for Edward Snowden's 30th birthday. So how 71 00:09:00,730 --> 00:09:09,910 did this all come out? Why, why was I able to find this story? In 2016 this movie 72 00:09:09,910 --> 00:09:14,040 came out—another movie, but this time a fictional, part-fictional, part-documentary 73 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:21,380 maybe by Oliver Stone. And it was clear that the refugees would play a part in 74 00:09:21,380 --> 00:09:26,910 this movie. So, after a long time of thinking, they were willing to talk to a 75 00:09:26,910 --> 00:09:36,399 journalist and have their story be told rather than rely on a Hollywood director. 76 00:09:36,399 --> 00:09:43,990 So here you have the two main actors —Joseph Gordon-Levitt on the left 77 00:09:43,990 --> 00:09:52,990 and Shailene Woodley, and of course director Oliver Stone on the right. And 78 00:09:52,990 --> 00:10:00,769 now, we come to the most important people of the night—on the left, 79 00:10:00,769 --> 00:10:06,379 Edward Snowden. And on the right, his lawyer in Hong Kong, who made all this 80 00:10:06,379 --> 00:10:12,259 possible. Because, of course, four refugees in Hong Kong couldn't just meet 81 00:10:12,259 --> 00:10:17,480 Edward Snowden on the street. It was this man, Robert Tibbo, who brought them 82 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:23,779 together. It was a coincidence, again. He was called out of the blue on the morning 83 00:10:23,779 --> 00:10:31,800 of the 10th of June in 2013 because Edward Snowden didn't know what to do, and 84 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:39,030 nobody, neither Snoden nor any of the Guardian people had planned how to, what 85 00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:44,389 to do on the next morning. So, this lawyer was called up—a human rights lawyer who 86 00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:50,160 has been working with refugees. And the cases of Ajit, Nadeeka, Supun, and Vanessa 87 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:58,279 for years. And when he was suddenly tasked with finding a solution for this 88 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:03,899 unbelievable problem—hiding the most sought-after, the most wanted man on the 89 00:11:03,899 --> 00:11:11,879 planet, he came up with this crazy idea: well, let's hide them with other refugees. 90 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:17,561 Let's hide them, let's hide Mr. Snowden where nobody would ever look—in the 91 00:11:17,561 --> 00:11:26,899 slums of Hong Kong. And it worked. For two weeks, Edward Snowden hid in the tiny 92 00:11:26,899 --> 00:11:36,339 apartments with sometimes no bathrooms, and was undetected by the entire Secret 93 00:11:36,339 --> 00:11:47,369 Service force of several nations. And, well, when I found this, I do what most 94 00:11:47,369 --> 00:11:55,659 journalists would do—I wrote a very long story. This was in 2016, we named it 95 00:11:55,659 --> 00:12:01,769 “Snowdens Geheimnis”—Snowden's Secret—, and I detailed all the stories of Vanessa, 96 00:12:01,769 --> 00:12:11,990 Supun, Ajit, and Nadeeka, and how they met and saved Edward Snowden. So the 97 00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:16,429 story was very well received—a lot of calls came in wanting to donate, people 98 00:12:16,429 --> 00:12:21,009 wanted to donate all over the world really because we also put out a English 99 00:12:21,009 --> 00:12:28,900 version of this. And we were able to funnel a lot of money to the refugees. Of 100 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:38,399 course not enough, but more than before. And just briefly, Rob told me to 101 00:12:38,399 --> 00:12:50,730 put this up here—it was awarded the Kurt Tucholsky award this year, and … 102 00:12:50,730 --> 00:13:01,209 [Applause] Thank you. This is one year ago, not here, 103 00:13:01,209 --> 00:13:12,110 but in Hamburg. Same place, another time. When Rob and I told the story to the CCC 104 00:13:12,110 --> 00:13:17,429 audience for the first time and things were actually looking up—we were getting 105 00:13:17,429 --> 00:13:25,040 money, we had connections to lawyers in Canada who wanted to bring them to Canada, 106 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:32,670 because these people cannot stay in Hong Kong. But as I said before—no good deed 107 00:13:32,670 --> 00:13:40,309 goes unpunished, and it hasn't. And I would like to now call Robert onto the 108 00:13:40,309 --> 00:13:49,490 stage, because what happens next will show you that certain governments in this 109 00:13:49,490 --> 00:13:55,449 world do not want people to help those in need. On the contrary, if you help 110 00:13:55,449 --> 00:14:03,089 somebody who's in danger for his life, you will get punished yourself. I think that's 111 00:14:03,089 --> 00:14:11,730 the story, that's the lesson that is being taught right now, and has been taught 112 00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:21,690 for the last two years ever since this story became public. Rob? 113 00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:40,839 [Applause] Robert Tibbo: Well thank you, thank you 114 00:14:40,839 --> 00:14:48,870 for being here tonight. And thank you so much for the interest that you have in my 115 00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:59,199 clients. Mr. Snowden, of course, but also the seven refugees who acted to protect 116 00:14:59,199 --> 00:15:06,279 the world's most significant whistleblower. Now what I'd like to do is 117 00:15:06,279 --> 00:15:14,630 like to start from where I left off last year. And this, the slide that you have 118 00:15:14,630 --> 00:15:23,829 here, was on the same day—the same date last year. And what has not been disclosed 119 00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:31,819 is after this talk a year ago I had left the auditorium, and I received phone calls 120 00:15:31,819 --> 00:15:39,529 from Hong Kong. The Sri Lankan police had flown into Hong Kong, the Criminal 121 00:15:39,529 --> 00:15:47,999 Investigation Division, targeting the Snowden refugees—seeking to engage them. 122 00:15:47,999 --> 00:15:57,359 Immediately, we took action: a legal team and those people helping the Snowden 123 00:15:57,359 --> 00:16:04,980 refugees to move them to safe houses. So what I'd like to do is to go through 124 00:16:04,980 --> 00:16:09,389 what's happened to the Snowden refugees this last year, because they've had a 125 00:16:09,389 --> 00:16:14,660 terrible time. They've been targeted by the Sri Lankan government, and they've 126 00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:19,069 been targeted by the Hong Kong government, and they've been punished by the Hong Kong 127 00:16:19,069 --> 00:16:35,300 government. Simply for their association with Mr. Snowden. Last September, their 128 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:39,230 seven cases were called up by the Immigration Department after the 129 00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:45,259 Immigration Department just ignored their cases for about five years. And their 130 00:16:45,259 --> 00:16:49,889 cases had nothing in common in terms of the incidents in their home countries, but 131 00:16:49,889 --> 00:16:56,310 the time that they were targeted for persecution or torture, ill-treatment. The 132 00:16:56,310 --> 00:17:00,621 time they left Sri Lanka in the Philippines. And even the time they were 133 00:17:00,621 --> 00:17:03,759 in Hong Kong when they raised their refugee and asylum claims. And the only 134 00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:11,949 factor that they had in common was the kindness, humanity, empathy, and 135 00:17:11,949 --> 00:17:19,099 compassion they showed Mr. Snowden. And the Hong Kong government, instead of 136 00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:31,730 recognizing the extraordinary deeds they did, instead took the opposite approach. 137 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:38,460 And last September, the Hong Kong government utilized different departments 138 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:45,550 to punish the Snowden refugees. Vanessa, Supun, Nadeeka went to the Social Welfare 139 00:17:45,550 --> 00:17:51,000 Department, which uses a Swiss contractor —International Social Services. And when 140 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,399 they went there to get the little financial support they're given which does 141 00:17:55,399 --> 00:18:01,200 not meet their basic needs, International Social Services, on behalf of the Social 142 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,649 Welfare department, started asking them about Mr. Snowden in private, information 143 00:18:05,649 --> 00:18:13,090 about Mr. Snowden. And these extraordinary people told the government that they're 144 00:18:13,090 --> 00:18:19,299 not going to breach Mr. Snowden's confidence. So they were punished—they 145 00:18:19,299 --> 00:18:23,710 had their food taken away from them, they had their housing taken away from them, 146 00:18:23,710 --> 00:18:31,720 transport money. The little girl in the front, on the right hand side, 147 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:38,130 ($NAME), she was denied access to education for one year. The little girl on 148 00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:45,631 the left, Vanessa's daughter, Kiana - she was denied education as well. And 149 00:18:45,631 --> 00:18:50,320 fortunately there was an extraordinary group in Hong Kong who ran a private 150 00:18:50,320 --> 00:19:00,370 school who brought her in. So through last September to December, the only assistance 151 00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:04,160 they had from the government was stripped away simply because they refused to 152 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:13,040 answer questions about Mr. Snowden. Now parallel to this time, in Sri Lanka, the 153 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:19,000 Sri Lankan local government, the Sri Lankan criminal investigation police 154 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,820 Criminal Investigation Division— renowned for its use of torture as one of 155 00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:31,169 its standard investigative tools in Sri Lanka—and the military, went to Ajif 156 00:19:31,169 --> 00:19:39,179 the soldier's house. Ajif is standing in the middle, on my right-hand side. The 157 00:19:39,179 --> 00:19:45,970 Sri Lankan police CID also went to Supun's family's homes—they threatened the 158 00:19:45,970 --> 00:19:51,830 families, they harassed the families, they wanted the locations telephone numbers of 159 00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:55,210 the families in Hong Kong, and they wanted the names and telephone numbers and 160 00:19:55,210 --> 00:20:03,219 addresses of the friends or people they knew in Hong Kong. But the Snowden 161 00:20:03,219 --> 00:20:09,850 refugees have extraordinary parents, and they did not speak up. They refused to 162 00:20:09,850 --> 00:20:27,049 assist, despite the threats. [Applause] 163 00:20:27,049 --> 00:20:32,110 With the Sri Lankan government using oppressive means to get intelligence on my 164 00:20:32,110 --> 00:20:38,691 clients in September and October, they then flew into Hong Kong in October, and 165 00:20:38,691 --> 00:20:48,500 through to December. And it was in December that a number of witnesses 166 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:53,009 were able to find out the Sri Lankan Criminal Investigation Division Department 167 00:20:53,009 --> 00:21:02,000 were targeting my clients. Now, I informed, as their lawyer, I informed the 168 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,090 Immigration Department. The Immigration Department did nothing. We tried making a 169 00:21:07,090 --> 00:21:12,230 complaint to the police, the Hong Kong police. They just told us the Immigration 170 00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:19,840 Department was conducting the investigations. Which wasn't true. And 171 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,070 finally, by April, the Hong Kong police agreed they would allow my clients to make 172 00:21:25,070 --> 00:21:30,529 a formal complaint to the police about the Sri Lankan police CID coming to Hong Kong. 173 00:21:30,529 --> 00:21:35,350 And threatening their safety, their security, and their lives. So for four 174 00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:40,150 months, the Hong Kong government, the Hong Kong police, failed to provide state 175 00:21:40,150 --> 00:21:47,110 protection, they failed to investigate they failed to act promptly. I brought my 176 00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:53,480 clients in to the Hong Kong police to make their complaint. The police didn't want to 177 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:00,080 take their complaint initially—they said they had a few questions. And they had a 178 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:12,111 list of questions on a A4 size paper. They asked my clients about Mr. Snowden. They 179 00:22:12,111 --> 00:22:18,419 asked about Mr. Snowden's movements in Hong Kong. The police's responsibilities 180 00:22:18,419 --> 00:22:22,269 were to address the threat from the Sri Lankan police, not asking questions about 181 00:22:22,269 --> 00:22:29,540 Mr. Snowden's movements in June 2013. Clearly, the police, as with the Social 182 00:22:29,540 --> 00:22:34,610 Welfare Department, as with the contractor ISS, has no interests in protecting and 183 00:22:34,610 --> 00:22:39,029 providing support for my clients. Their interest was to gather intelligence 184 00:22:39,029 --> 00:22:44,789 on Mr. Snowden. I put a stop to that—my 185 00:22:44,789 --> 00:22:49,780 instructing solicitor Jonathan Man was with me. And eventually police complaints 186 00:22:49,780 --> 00:22:58,429 were made. But the police weren't interested in investigating the Sri Lankan 187 00:22:58,429 --> 00:23:04,299 police. I had it, I had put it to the investigating officers—all you have to 188 00:23:04,299 --> 00:23:08,400 do is to go to the Directorate of immigrations office in Hong Kong, and ask 189 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,120 for the files of all Sri Lankan police officers who travel to Hong Kong between 190 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:20,600 October and December 2016. That is because every Sri Lankan who travels to Hong Kong 191 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:26,220 must obtain a visa from the Chinese embassy in Colombo. They must provide a 192 00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:31,809 photograph, and they must provide the nature of their employment. Or who they're 193 00:23:31,809 --> 00:23:43,050 employed by. And the police did nothing. The Hong Kong government did nothing. And 194 00:23:43,050 --> 00:23:46,470 it would have been a simple task—the Hong Kong government could have said, 195 00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:50,860 “there were no police officers coming to Hong Kong from Sri Lanka at that time 196 00:23:50,860 --> 00:23:57,340 because we have no records of such.” And the fact that they didn't investigate 197 00:23:57,340 --> 00:24:02,389 that, or at least disclose that they've checked their files, indicates that 198 00:24:02,389 --> 00:24:06,680 there's only one sole inference to be made —that the Sri Lankan police were in fact 199 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:16,520 in Hong Kong. Aside from the fact that there were a number of witnesses. Then, in 200 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:24,330 August of this year, the witnesses to the Sri Lankan police coming to Hong Kong and 201 00:24:24,330 --> 00:24:32,549 targeting the Snowden refugees were grabbed by the police. They had committed 202 00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:39,130 no crimes, they had done nothing wrong, they were simply grabbed by six officers— 203 00:24:39,130 --> 00:24:43,840 two immigration enforcement officers, four police officers from the Criminal 204 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:50,370 Investigation Department in Hong Kong. They were put into a van, and they were 205 00:24:50,370 --> 00:25:00,059 held, unlawfully, on two days. And the first question the police asked the first 206 00:25:00,059 --> 00:25:14,830 detainee was about Mr. Snowden. And the police were trying to make a case that the 207 00:25:14,830 --> 00:25:27,270 Snowden refugees made up the story. In October, I was informed that the Hong Kong 208 00:25:27,270 --> 00:25:33,610 police finished the investigation and there'd be no further investigation. But a 209 00:25:33,610 --> 00:25:39,220 few weeks later another witness was arrested by the Hong Kong police, again, 210 00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:49,750 targeting the Snowden refugees and those people acting for them. Now, why, why 211 00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:58,340 would the Sri Lankan police be coming to Hong Kong? And Hong Kong has a history of 212 00:25:58,340 --> 00:26:04,640 allowing foreign agents to come into its jurisdiction, and to target, engage, and 213 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:13,080 even extraordinarily rendition civilians in Hong Kong. Sami al-Saadi in 2003, 214 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:18,940 Hong Kong assisted the UK and US governments to have him rendition in a 215 00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:24,409 private flight to Libya where he was tortured. The booksellers in Hong Kong a 216 00:26:24,409 --> 00:26:30,860 couple years ago were renditioned by the mainland Chinese security, out of Hong 217 00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:37,320 Kong in Thailand. And in January this year, a Chinese billionaire, Xiao Jianhua, was taken 218 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,470 out of the Four Seasons Hotel, a Canadian hotel, in Hong Kong. And renditioned 219 00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:52,690 across the border—and he's disappeared. So my clients have had a very hard time. 220 00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:59,210 I've been targeted myself—the Hong Kong director of immigration has sought to have 221 00:26:59,210 --> 00:27:03,709 me removed from the cases. Has made complaints to the Bar Association, and 222 00:27:03,709 --> 00:27:12,160 without merit. They've reactivated dozens of cases right before the Snowden refugee 223 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:22,299 appeals. The Hong Kong government has simply acted egregiously and projecting 224 00:27:22,299 --> 00:27:29,200 its authority with impunity. The Sri Lankan police, I believe, came in to Hong 225 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:35,669 Kong simply because the Hong Kong government has created an environment 226 00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:41,720 where Hong Kong has not held any foreign agent accountable for their unlawful 227 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,559 activities in Hong Kong. And by the way, mainland China, the Chinese government, is 228 00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:51,340 the biggest arms provider to the Sri Lankan government. So they have a very 229 00:27:51,340 --> 00:28:05,470 close military relationship there. Now, strategy was put into place where we found 230 00:28:05,470 --> 00:28:09,080 myself and the lawyers you can see in the photo—on the far right hand side is 231 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,549 Jonathan Mann, beside him is Michael Simkin from Canada, from Montreal Quebec, 232 00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:19,159 Canada. Myself, originally from Montreal Quebec, Canada. Marc-André Séguin, the lead 233 00:28:19,159 --> 00:28:27,370 lawyer in Canada. And on the far left is Francis Tourigny. They filed refugee claims 234 00:28:27,370 --> 00:28:31,139 with the Canadian government, with the Ministry of immigration; Ahmed Hussein, who 235 00:28:31,139 --> 00:28:38,610 himself is a former refugee from Somalia. In May, the Canadian government 236 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:42,899 communicated very clearly in writing that they would expedite the screening of our 237 00:28:42,899 --> 00:28:51,770 clients’ cases, aware that the situation for our clients was serious and urgent. In 238 00:28:51,770 --> 00:28:56,220 July of this year, the Canadian government made a turnabout and said they would 239 00:28:56,220 --> 00:29:05,000 assess the cases chronologically, which takes 52 months. So on one hand the Hong 240 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:11,090 Kong government is simply trying to fast- track and rush the screening process for 241 00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:16,740 my clients in Hong Kong for their asylum and refugee claims— 242 00:29:16,740 --> 00:29:22,499 to deport them. And in Hong Kong, there's an effective zero percent acceptance rate 243 00:29:22,499 --> 00:29:27,179 of refugees in Hong Kong. Which is extraordinary, and the UN Committee 244 00:29:27,179 --> 00:29:32,070 Against Torture has said that this is … has been very critical for the Hong Kong 245 00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:39,830 government. So at this stage, these lawyers are pushing the Canadian government to 246 00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:45,029 have these cases decided in favour of our clients, and to remind the Canadian 247 00:29:45,029 --> 00:29:49,070 government that if the clients are removed from Hong Kong, because the Canadian 248 00:29:49,070 --> 00:29:55,059 government fails to act in time, the Canadian refugee claims will extinguish. 249 00:29:55,059 --> 00:29:58,860 Because the clients, once they return to their home soil, they have no more refugee 250 00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:07,259 claims. Under the Refugee Convention, you must be outside of your home country. 251 00:30:07,259 --> 00:30:19,490 Right, I'm gonna come to this last, because the clients need support. And they 252 00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:24,039 need support for food, for rent, because the Hong Kong government is not providing 253 00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:30,679 any of that. And we foresee that we we have a continued battle through to 2018. 254 00:30:30,679 --> 00:30:37,200 But at the same time, other the clients; the clients will not be in Hong Kong by 255 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,669 the end of 2018. We, we know that as a fact. They're either gonna be in their 256 00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:54,650 home countries, or hopefully they'll be in Canada. The one other thing I'd like to 257 00:30:54,650 --> 00:30:59,281 mention is that when the Hong Kong police grabbed the witnesses to the Snowden, for 258 00:30:59,281 --> 00:31:07,230 the Snowden refugees, Sri Lankan police— they took the cell phones from the 259 00:31:07,230 --> 00:31:13,149 clients. From the re…, from the witnesses, and they gained access to the 260 00:31:13,149 --> 00:31:17,809 data in there. And they did that unlawfully. So this is the environment in 261 00:31:17,809 --> 00:31:22,710 Hong Kong. This is an environment where police have acted with impunity against 262 00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:32,299 the most vulnerable. Even to this day, the Department of Justice in Hong Kong refuses 263 00:31:32,299 --> 00:31:39,520 to believe that Mr. Snowden had ever met the Snowden refugees—despite compelling 264 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:45,700 evidence. And it's an extraordinary and bizarre situation in Hong Kong. But what 265 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:50,740 it is is, the government projecting its power, and using it against the most 266 00:31:50,740 --> 00:31:59,500 vulnerable. I'm going to stop here, and what I would like to do now, is I'd like 267 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:05,140 to welcome my other client: Mr. Edward Snowden. 268 00:32:05,140 --> 00:32:42,520 [Applause] Edward Snowden: So, we have a limited time. 269 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,719 Actually for the audio room—could you cut my my feed for the room for a minute 270 00:32:46,719 --> 00:32:59,340 while I speak—thank you. So, everything that you've heard so far, is an indication 271 00:32:59,340 --> 00:33:04,179 of the kind of things that hackers have known about long before anybody else—we 272 00:33:04,179 --> 00:33:10,149 are familiar with the fact that governments abuse their power. We are 273 00:33:10,149 --> 00:33:16,700 familiar with the fact, the idea, that institutions, and the processes that we're 274 00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:25,370 told to rely on don't always work as promised. And the question is: Why is that? 275 00:33:25,370 --> 00:33:32,159 What is a hacker? Why are you here? You know, first of all, I have to thank 276 00:33:32,159 --> 00:33:38,460 you, everyone, for coming to this talk, because I know I had to be a long line. 277 00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:43,190 And you're here to hear about the individual plight of these incredibly 278 00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:52,470 brave people: Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, and Vanessa and their children. Instead of, 279 00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:56,240 one of a hundred other talks, which I'm sure given this timeslot are incredibly 280 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,909 compelling and nobody wanted to miss. But in this room, we have a thousand hackers 281 00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:06,880 for human rights. And I would argue the reason for that is because you care. And 282 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,860 this is important, right? This is no small thing; this is not a platitude, this is 283 00:34:10,860 --> 00:34:16,880 not to be cute, this is not lip service, right? Because caring is the prerequisite 284 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:22,670 of progress—I don't care how smart you are, I don't care how much talent you 285 00:34:22,670 --> 00:34:26,989 have, I don't care how connected you are, what your resources are, who your friends 286 00:34:26,989 --> 00:34:33,389 are, where you went to school. All of these capabilities are bottlenecked by a 287 00:34:33,389 --> 00:34:37,610 single thing—and that is concern. That is how much you care. 288 00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:44,119 And you're here. These families need our help. This is a problem that 289 00:34:44,119 --> 00:34:47,000 needs to be solved, and I can think of no 290 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:53,710 better to solve this than you, hackers, right? Because it is that shared value 291 00:34:53,710 --> 00:35:00,150 that we all have. Where we look at these things, this, this this common sentiment, 292 00:35:00,150 --> 00:35:04,500 this tribal value that defines all of us. Regardless of how we feel about the 293 00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:08,820 politics. Regardless, of you know, the one guy out there in the audience who's like, 294 00:35:08,820 --> 00:35:14,700 “Oh, I'm not gonna clap for this guy, he's a Russian spy.” You know, we all know that 295 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:25,020 person. And that's okay, right? Because what is a hacker? One who doubts. That 296 00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:30,730 weirdo in the third row is that guy. Just as the rest of us are. A hacker is one 297 00:35:30,730 --> 00:35:36,610 skeptical of claims—that the system works as promised, or even design, rather 298 00:35:36,610 --> 00:35:42,770 than how it operates, as it's observed, what we see. We take the risk every day of 299 00:35:42,770 --> 00:35:52,940 our work, of being wrong—in order to be right. In order to do right. In order to 300 00:35:52,940 --> 00:36:00,350 fix problems. In order to discover things people didn't know. Well, why, why did 301 00:36:00,350 --> 00:36:06,930 people do that why risk wasting hours and euros and verifying some random API or 302 00:36:06,930 --> 00:36:13,560 running the fuzzer for weeks, just to see what happens? And this is gonna sound like 303 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:18,120 the most arrogant statement you'll hear, you know, all week. But it's because we 304 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:27,100 know better: all of us have reasons for that doubt. That are different, but in each 305 00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:34,160 one of us we share a lived experience that planted a seed in us that grew into that 306 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:40,660 skepticism. That we should trust the system. That we should rely upon the way 307 00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:45,150 the world is, as it is, and accept that that's just the way things are. That what 308 00:36:45,150 --> 00:36:50,950 was promised is good enough. And boy, ladies and gentlemen, what I say that this 309 00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:57,290 year has proved the value of our skepticism. What you've heard so far about 310 00:36:57,290 --> 00:37:01,360 the familes, what you've heard so far about the retaliation against Mr. Tibbo, 311 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,700 which I promise you, based on personal knowledge, goes far deeper than what he 312 00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:14,830 has said. Because he's kind of a humble guy. But it is beyond 313 00:37:14,830 --> 00:37:22,140 injustice. and it's travelling into inhumanity, right? So we look to the 314 00:37:22,140 --> 00:37:27,230 other side: Why? Why is the Hong Kong government acting like this, right? Why 315 00:37:27,230 --> 00:37:36,790 are these, you know, few people being dragged through coals when the government 316 00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:41,940 could very easily just say, “Okay fine, you know, we know their names, they're in a 317 00:37:41,940 --> 00:37:46,840 movie, we're just gonna let them pass, well, we'll give them asylum.” Even though 318 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,980 in Hong Kong, the asylum admittance rate is something less than 1%. In most 319 00:37:51,980 --> 00:37:56,560 countries I think it's more than 30%, but in Hong Kong it's less than 1%. 320 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:02,620 Nobody gets asylum. And the reason why is because these people then become an 321 00:38:02,620 --> 00:38:06,590 example—they show that there are things that are wrong, they show that the system 322 00:38:06,590 --> 00:38:11,370 is broke, and they show that things can work better when people understand it. 323 00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:18,330 When somebody shows the flaw, when these people become the proof of concept— 324 00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:23,000 suddenly there's pressure for change, suddenly that caring begins. 325 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,840 And suddenly, progress seems realistic. And just as in many other countries, 326 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,900 immigration, unfortunately, is a politically contentious issue. Regardless 327 00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:37,000 of whether these are, you know, economic migrants, or whether these are people who 328 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:46,420 are legitimately flaming … fleeing torture and violence, rape, and threats to life. 329 00:38:46,420 --> 00:38:49,900 And this is why I think this is so important. This is why I think it's so 330 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:53,940 important, to talk about this. To be interested in this—even if you don't do 331 00:38:53,940 --> 00:38:58,020 anything about it, although I absolutely hope that you will do something about it. 332 00:38:58,020 --> 00:39:04,100 Is because doubt is the first form of dissent. We like to think of protest, 333 00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:10,900 right? We like to think of, you know, people making arguments. Constructing 334 00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:14,730 them, writing, and sharing the debate. And these things are important, but these all 335 00:39:14,730 --> 00:39:20,160 grow from that initial impulse, that initial skepticism, that initial doubt, 336 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:29,390 that just makes you go, “this doesn't seem right!” Because if that doubt is powerful, 337 00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:37,670 doubt is valuable, doubt is that motivator. But doubt makes enemies, right? 338 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:43,430 And these people who doubted the legitimacy of the Hong Kong government's 339 00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:50,450 approaches to them: the threats, the coercion, the attempts at subversion 340 00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:57,675 to make them go against their initial decision: that has made them enemies. 341 00:39:57,675 --> 00:40:02,720 And now they face retaliation, and now they need our help. So what do we 342 00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:11,380 do? You know, we are, ultimately, just people. We are technologists, we are 343 00:40:11,380 --> 00:40:19,800 technicians. And we are a community of so many others. You know, this is a difficult 344 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,210 case for some people who have deeply conservative political values—I would 345 00:40:24,210 --> 00:40:29,810 hope they are not the majority in the room. But I want you to put yourself, just 346 00:40:29,810 --> 00:40:38,030 for a second, in the shoes of these people, these families, my friends, live 347 00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:45,810 in desperate poverty. They did not have a toilet that you sat on—it was a hole in 348 00:40:45,810 --> 00:40:54,470 the floor. The kitchen sink was the bathroom sink. The stove was a camp stove 349 00:40:54,470 --> 00:41:02,580 in the bathroom. People rotated sleeping on the floor because there weren't enough 350 00:41:02,580 --> 00:41:09,810 beds. These are not people living in glamorous circumstances. These are not 351 00:41:09,810 --> 00:41:14,130 people exploiting this system, right. These are not people trying to get 352 00:41:14,130 --> 00:41:18,450 something for nothing. These are people trying to make the most of what they have. 353 00:41:18,450 --> 00:41:22,850 Trying to eke out an existence in a difficult, competitive society that is not 354 00:41:22,850 --> 00:41:28,680 their own. In a place where the language is not their own. And trying to raise 355 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,370 children in, ultimately, hostile circumstance and despite that, despite the 356 00:41:34,370 --> 00:41:38,820 precarious situation in which they found themselves, despite having nothing and 357 00:41:38,820 --> 00:41:44,600 having no one but Mr. Tibbo to represent them. And hope that one day, they would be 358 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,220 able to stay and have right to actually just apply for a job—not even a 359 00:41:49,220 --> 00:41:57,730 guarantee of work. Somebody showed up on their doorstep. And imagine that was you, 360 00:41:57,730 --> 00:42:06,870 and it's the most wanted man in the world. And he needs help, right. Maybe he's the 361 00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:10,140 worst person on earth, maybe he's the best; you don't know. All you know is he's 362 00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:17,660 hunted. These families knew what that was like. They'd been there, they lived 363 00:42:17,660 --> 00:42:27,370 through that. And because of that they helped me get off the X. They risked a 364 00:42:27,370 --> 00:42:38,840 lot. And I think, you know, so many people say so negative things about refugees 365 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,820 today. They see them as the worst kind of people. But I know for my lived 366 00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:51,120 experience, right, my seed of doubt, that there are cases that they're wrong. 367 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,020 And this is absolutely one of them—these are some of the best people that I've ever 368 00:42:55,020 --> 00:43:03,300 met, who have nothing but were willing to risk everything for someone that they 369 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:12,931 didn't even know. Just because they knew what it was like to need shelter. And so I 370 00:43:12,931 --> 00:43:17,630 ask you, you know, think about what you can do, in a small way. Maybe you can help 371 00:43:17,630 --> 00:43:26,350 them, right. Maybe you can donate—we have a website fortherefugees.com—it's a 372 00:43:26,350 --> 00:43:30,860 fundraise for the family. But it's more than that, right? Because this is not just 373 00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:34,181 about what happens in this room, this is not just about this individual case. These 374 00:43:34,181 --> 00:43:38,940 problems are going to persist. Other people are going to run into the same 375 00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:43,530 challenges. And its going to be a question of, who do they turn to, when they don't 376 00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:49,400 have a movie to advocate for them, right? And that's why I would say something that 377 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,470 frustrates me about what we have seen in the advance of technologies just in these 378 00:43:53,470 --> 00:44:02,580 last few years, is this used to be, unfortunately, a very clubby community, 379 00:44:02,580 --> 00:44:08,680 right? And it's broadened, we've got wider participation, and that's awesome. But 380 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,030 with that, we've also seen a commoditization of our work, of what we 381 00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:17,230 do. We see people looking to land their job at the Google, the Facebook. And to do 382 00:44:17,230 --> 00:44:25,150 that, they sand down the sharp edges of their own beliefs, of their own seeds, 383 00:44:25,150 --> 00:44:31,500 of their own ideologies. We become more likely to agree, rather than more likely 384 00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:36,520 to argue. And I think we need to think about what that means for the world when 385 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,580 we, and our occupation, our specialty in this moment of history—the atomic moment 386 00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:48,060 of computer science. Our work has never been more important. You can't open a 387 00:44:48,060 --> 00:44:51,920 newspaper without people talking about cybersecurity, right? Cyber, cyber, cyber. 388 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,410 Because they don't know you should just say computers; instead they want to invent 389 00:44:55,410 --> 00:45:03,200 words, right? But the problem here is the world is relying upon us; at the same time, 390 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,140 we are being pressured to be apolitical. And ladies and gentlemen, I think that is 391 00:45:07,140 --> 00:45:10,910 wrong, I think that is incorrect. I think we have some of the brightest minds 392 00:45:10,910 --> 00:45:16,590 in our communities, in this room. And I think what you think, what you 393 00:45:16,590 --> 00:45:20,270 believe, matters beyond what you can do behind the keyboard. And I think what you 394 00:45:20,270 --> 00:45:24,770 do behind the keyboard should be an expression, an extension, of making that 395 00:45:24,770 --> 00:45:30,010 real. Right, look around at the world: look at the fact that we're having to come 396 00:45:30,010 --> 00:45:35,360 together in conferences, and we're having to hold largely off-topic conversations to 397 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:41,630 meet the basic needs of brave people. But can we make that system better? And can we 398 00:45:41,630 --> 00:45:45,910 do that on a broader stage than what we have here, we're not even talking about 399 00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:50,920 refugees—we're talking about the entire body of humanity. I think we can, and I 400 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:57,540 think we should. We've seen progress, we've seen where we have actually made 401 00:45:57,540 --> 00:46:01,810 constructive advances here. You see in the United States there's always this constant 402 00:46:01,810 --> 00:46:05,930 talk about encryption, government spying backdoors into it; the FBI is having to 403 00:46:05,930 --> 00:46:13,710 beg on both knees corporations not to use secure communications. It was not so very 404 00:46:13,710 --> 00:46:17,550 long ago, ladies and gentlemen, that that would have seemed like a joke. The 405 00:46:17,550 --> 00:46:21,280 governments would have simply presumed that they could have banned this easily, 406 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,060 they could have made the rule, set the rules, and we would have to live by them. 407 00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:28,971 Without even having a chance to consider whether they were right or wrong, simply 408 00:46:28,971 --> 00:46:33,780 because it was their sovereign decision. But we are now a part of that sovereign: 409 00:46:33,780 --> 00:46:38,770 this world is larger. Our ability to be involved in our societies, our 410 00:46:38,770 --> 00:46:45,020 democracies, and more broadly across borders, our world is larger. And with 411 00:46:45,020 --> 00:46:50,520 this role we need to be thinking about what we can do. Maybe you're not a lawyer, 412 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:56,600 right? Maybe you have no influence in Hong Kong; God knows I don't, right? Maybe we 413 00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:03,590 can't guarantee the courts will be fair. Maybe we cannot guarantee that the police 414 00:47:03,590 --> 00:47:08,470 are going to be accurate. Maybe we cannot guarantee that the government is going to 415 00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:19,560 serve the people. But maybe we can ensure that we don't need them to. And that is a 416 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,230 revolutionary idea. But it's a basic idea, it's an old idea, 417 00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:26,510 it's one that's as old as hacking itself. 418 00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:32,530 We don't want to be told what to do. And that's not to say that all government is 419 00:47:32,530 --> 00:47:35,900 the enemy that's, not to say that we shouldn't do anything at all. That doesn't 420 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:41,181 mean that, you know, all rules are bad. But all rules should be challenged, all 421 00:47:41,181 --> 00:47:47,511 rules should be proven. All implementations should be tested. And that 422 00:47:47,511 --> 00:47:53,470 goes beyond APIs, ladies and gentlemen. And I hope, based on this you will help 423 00:47:53,470 --> 00:47:58,920 Ajit, Supun, Nadeeka, Vanessa and their kids. And I hope, ladies and gentlemen, 424 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,290 you will not stop there. Thank you very much. 425 00:48:03,290 --> 00:48:23,471 [Applause] Edward Snowden: Just to be clear, I have 426 00:48:23,471 --> 00:48:47,040 no audio, but I can see you. Thank you. [Applause] 427 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:52,160 Robert Tibbo: Thank you, thank you so much, Ed. 428 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,230 Edward Snowden: And thank you, thank you. I don't know if we have time for 429 00:48:56,230 --> 00:49:01,120 questions: I can't hear real well. Robert, if you want to take them or anyone else. 430 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,140 Or if we're behind schedule—I know CCC is always tight—we can move on to the next … 431 00:49:05,140 --> 00:49:06,530 Robert Tibbo: Well there's two things. 432 00:49:06,530 --> 00:49:13,930 I think, I think probably, there should be at least one question for you tonight. But 433 00:49:13,930 --> 00:49:20,070 the Snowden refugees are gonna … they're gonna come on screen right after 434 00:49:20,070 --> 00:49:27,040 Ed answers the question. So you're gonna have an opportunity to meet all seven of 435 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:32,530 Ed Snowden, Snowden's guardians or guardian angels. So one question 436 00:49:32,530 --> 00:49:41,900 Edward Snowden: And if I could ask the CCC technical team: if you could type this for 437 00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:46,430 me, that would help, because I can't hear at all. 438 00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:51,040 Question: Hi, so, thank you. So Russian President Putin has said multiple times 439 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:57,300 that you met with Russian officials in Hong Kong? At what point did that happen, 440 00:49:57,300 --> 00:50:02,420 and, if it was during you staying with the refugees, how did that work? 441 00:50:02,420 --> 00:50:09,110 Edward Snowden: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear the question but I think it was something 442 00:50:09,110 --> 00:50:13,750 about the Russians, right? And so I'm glad somebody asked, because this gets into the 443 00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:22,850 whole doubting thing, right? Of course we're gonna get the Russian question, 444 00:50:22,850 --> 00:50:26,980 right? Well look, a lot of people are interested in this, and a lot of people 445 00:50:26,980 --> 00:50:30,420 wonder, because there's all of these conspiracy theories out here. It's it's a 446 00:50:30,420 --> 00:50:37,230 fabulous wonderful thing that we have this skepticism, but it should also be 447 00:50:37,230 --> 00:50:42,730 reasonable, right? Whenever we look at argumentation, whenever we look at doubt, 448 00:50:42,730 --> 00:50:49,690 there's this ancient rule. Which is, that which is asserted without evidence 449 00:50:49,690 --> 00:50:55,130 must be dismissed without evidence. Because otherwise, we're wasting our time 450 00:50:55,130 --> 00:50:59,160 We don't just want to be engaged in speculation. There was a whole book 451 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:05,460 written by some crazy guy that was this missing days theory, right? Where like 452 00:51:05,460 --> 00:51:10,490 before I was even at the Mira, I was secretly sneaking around with the 453 00:51:10,490 --> 00:51:15,750 Russians, and it simply didn't happen. They said I wasn't at the Mira hotel, I 454 00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:22,530 had a, like, some handler or somebody like that in in Hong Kong. And I was staying 455 00:51:22,530 --> 00:51:27,650 with them. But the funny thing is we actually had hotel receipts, right? So 456 00:51:27,650 --> 00:51:30,980 this book comes out and we published them and then they're like, “Oh! But you know, 457 00:51:30,980 --> 00:51:36,200 maybe we just got it wrong, maybe it was a little bit whatever.” But the reality is, 458 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:45,800 guys, look: what makes more sense, when we talk about doubt? The idea that a guy 459 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,520 who's making a hell of a lot of money without a high school degree in the United 460 00:51:51,520 --> 00:52:00,270 States, working at the NSA, working at the CIA; in Hawaii with a, living with a 461 00:52:00,270 --> 00:52:04,880 beautiful woman that he loves very much, that he's been together for years, is gonna 462 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:12,320 set his life on fire to go run off to Russia, right? Particularly when his argument is 463 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,950 primarily against surveillance. Does that make sense, okay? And then going beyond 464 00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:23,970 this: if that's the case, right, and he is a Russian spy: why in the hell does he 465 00:52:23,970 --> 00:52:29,240 go to Hong Kong, first, right? Why doesn't he just fly to Moscow, right? But setting 466 00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:35,700 that aside, we got all these double games and these wheels within wheels where I 467 00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:43,150 didn't even choose to be in Russia. I had a transit ticket that was just supposed to 468 00:52:43,150 --> 00:52:48,070 be a layover for like 12 hours or something like that in Moscow, en-route to 469 00:52:48,070 --> 00:52:53,480 Latin America. And this is publicly known! This isn't, like, speculation, this 470 00:52:53,480 --> 00:53:00,010 isn't assertion. It's documented fact; you can still go on Twitter and find pictures 471 00:53:00,010 --> 00:53:06,430 of the plane to Cuba that was packed full of journalists taking pictures of my empty 472 00:53:06,430 --> 00:53:10,650 seat and Aeroflot leaked the ticket, right, where where I was in it 473 00:53:10,650 --> 00:53:16,540 or whatever. But it just goes on and on. We got this continuing today, where I 474 00:53:16,540 --> 00:53:19,340 just released a new app with the freedom of the press foundation and 475 00:53:19,340 --> 00:53:22,050 the Guardian project. Maybe some of you guys have heard about it. 476 00:53:22,050 --> 00:53:25,100 It's called Haven. It's an Android app, right, 477 00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:30,170 It's completely open-source. It's free, it's not for pay, there's no profit motive 478 00:53:30,170 --> 00:53:36,890 in this. And we had, like, some former CIA guys out there go into the meeting going, 479 00:53:36,890 --> 00:53:41,150 “There's no way this isn't a Russian government backdoor!” First of all, guys, 480 00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:44,530 it's open source. It's … the program's not that big, it's in Java. Just go look 481 00:53:44,530 --> 00:53:50,530 at the code yourself. It's not there. But even, even if it were there, it could be 482 00:53:50,530 --> 00:53:58,910 there or wherever, guess how many lines of code I wrote on Haven, guys. Zero, right? 483 00:53:58,910 --> 00:54:03,140 I'm not a developer. I'm not trying to be. The person you want to thank is Nate 484 00:54:03,140 --> 00:54:07,150 Freitas. Who is, by the way, an American. He's not a Russian, I don't think he's 485 00:54:07,150 --> 00:54:13,120 even ever been to Russia. I don't even have access to the git repo, specifically 486 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:18,050 to avoid people being able to make these arguments. To try to undermine the 487 00:54:18,050 --> 00:54:23,230 application. So even if I were a Russian spy, right? Even if this were some sneaky 488 00:54:23,230 --> 00:54:30,020 trick, planned the long game to try to get into people's phones. How would that even 489 00:54:30,020 --> 00:54:37,420 work, right? So just to answer the question formally I would say: thank you 490 00:54:37,420 --> 00:54:41,220 for being doubtful, thank you for being skeptical, but at the same time, don't be 491 00:54:41,220 --> 00:55:03,200 crazy. Thank you. [Applause] 492 00:55:04,380 --> 00:55:11,080 Robert Tibbo: Alright the, the next group of people will be the Snowden refugees. 493 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:16,020 They're gonna come on in about a minute, and there are a few things I also wanted 494 00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:26,090 to disclose to you and … help you understand that the Hong Kong government 495 00:55:26,090 --> 00:55:30,420 has taken a view in all the cases I've done, that the Philippines in Sri Lanka 496 00:55:30,420 --> 00:55:39,171 are safe countries that have rule of law and provide state protection. And that 497 00:55:39,171 --> 00:55:46,000 couldn't be further from the truth. So very quickly, under the President 498 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:53,600 Duterte's, and I would call it an authoritarian regime, in the Philippines, 499 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,990 he's instituted martial law in Mindanao. He successfully, in December, had that 500 00:55:58,990 --> 00:56:05,311 extended for a year, but without lawful basis. He broke off. He actually 501 00:56:05,311 --> 00:56:11,580 ordered emergency … a state of emergency across the country earlier this year. 502 00:56:11,580 --> 00:56:16,510 Over 10,000 people have lost their lives in the name of his drug war. Which 503 00:56:16,510 --> 00:56:29,130 in fact, is just a façade for basically creating fear in the Philippines. And he's 504 00:56:29,130 --> 00:56:34,270 expanded that war on drugs targeting politicians, journalists, and political 505 00:56:34,270 --> 00:56:41,010 activists. And only a few months ago, he threatened the United Nations Special 506 00:56:41,010 --> 00:56:48,900 Rapporteur on or extrajudicial killings and summary executions by telling her that 507 00:56:48,900 --> 00:56:55,630 if he sees her he's going to slap her in the face. He's a self-confessed murderer. 508 00:56:55,630 --> 00:57:00,270 He broke off negotiations, peace talks, with the New People's Army—and this is 509 00:57:00,270 --> 00:57:06,760 the group that persecuted Vanessa. And here are my clients. 510 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:46,420 [Applause] Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun, Nadeeka, 511 00:57:46,420 --> 00:57:51,670 Ajit: can you hear everybody? Daughter: Hi! 512 00:57:51,670 --> 00:58:02,221 Robert Tibbo: Alright, so what I'd like to do is, I'd like to open this up to Q&A. So 513 00:58:02,221 --> 00:58:07,170 if you'd like … if you have any questions for my clients, they'd be more than happy 514 00:58:07,170 --> 00:58:14,880 to to try to answer your questions. [Silence followed by laughter] 515 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:27,560 Robert Tibbo: Don't be afraid! All right, so. So Vanessa's from the Philippines, and 516 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:36,940 the other three adults are from Sri Lanka. And so we've been doing everything to keep 517 00:58:36,940 --> 00:58:45,120 their cases alive in Hong Kong, and also advocating to the Canadian government to, 518 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:51,890 to act quickly, to act promptly. A couple things I'll mention about the Snowden 519 00:58:51,890 --> 00:58:56,400 refugees is that I raised their asylum claims for the children under the United 520 00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:02,310 Nations Convention on rights of the child. And the Hong Kong government had signed 521 00:59:02,310 --> 00:59:09,980 that International Convention, but decided that they didn't have to follow it. They 522 00:59:09,980 --> 00:59:14,880 said, because we didn't incorporate it into domestic legislation, these children 523 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,830 don't have the benefit on the UN Convention and rights to the child. And 524 00:59:18,830 --> 00:59:27,000 refused to assess their asylum claims on that basis. So Hong Kong, they're without 525 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:32,900 a doubt, the richest jurisdiction in the world. This is how they view the treatment 526 00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:39,870 of the vulnerable, but in particular, vulnerable children. Vanessa, is there 527 00:59:39,870 --> 00:59:46,380 anything you'd like to say? Oh are there questions? Yes, please. 528 00:59:46,380 --> 00:59:53,770 Question: Yes, I think the German government should be ash… the German 529 00:59:53,770 --> 00:59:59,740 government should be ashamed that Edward Snowden cannot come here 530 00:59:59,740 --> 01:00:07,050 as a political refugee. Would it be helpful if we pressure the German government 531 01:00:07,050 --> 01:00:14,780 to give political refugee status to Edward Snowden's guardian angels? 532 01:00:14,780 --> 01:00:17,930 If the Canadian government is not moving fast enough, maybe 533 01:00:17,930 --> 01:00:22,800 we can get the German government to move fast enough? 534 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:40,601 [Applause] Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun; the question 535 01:00:40,601 --> 01:00:44,310 is: if Canada doesn't act, would you like it if the German government is 536 01:00:44,310 --> 01:00:51,770 asked to act? To provide asylum to you and the other families. 537 01:00:51,770 --> 01:01:02,470 [Silence} Robert Tibbo: Can you hear? Are you able 538 01:01:02,470 --> 01:01:17,160 to hear us? I think we've lost the sound. Yes definitely, definitely. 539 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:27,550 [Applause] There are only seven Snowden refugees in 540 01:01:27,550 --> 01:01:33,950 the world. Who did the extraordinary. And as you learned tonight, their families in 541 01:01:33,950 --> 01:01:39,290 Sri Lanka did the extraordinary. To protect Edward Snowden. Because they knew 542 01:01:39,290 --> 01:01:49,570 it was the right thing to do. And without without hesitation. There; it is 543 01:01:49,570 --> 01:01:57,340 extraordinary that in this world today, that there's no room for seven refugees. 544 01:01:57,340 --> 01:02:09,440 No room. These specific extraordinary people. And, it's just, it would be an 545 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:14,241 easy one step forward by the German government to offer them asylum. There's 546 01:02:14,241 --> 01:02:18,270 another question, I think, from number seven. 547 01:02:18,270 --> 01:02:23,010 Mic 7: Yeah hi—I just wanted to say thank you to the refugees for their 548 01:02:23,010 --> 01:02:27,190 bravecy… their bravery. [Applause] 549 01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:38,780 Mic 7: For our privacy. And also ask, given the difficulties of your situation 550 01:02:38,780 --> 01:02:46,830 before you met this man: What compelled you to help him? 551 01:02:46,830 --> 01:02:59,500 Robert Tibbo: Can you guys hear the question? Can you hear? It looks like 552 01:02:59,500 --> 01:03:09,030 we've lost the sound again. There we go, it sounds working. All right, can you, can 553 01:03:09,030 --> 01:03:30,300 you hear? Can you hear? Vanessa: Now we can hear you 554 01:03:30,300 --> 01:03:48,610 Robert Tibbo: You can hear now right? Why did you help Mr. Snowden? Vanessa, why did 555 01:03:48,610 --> 01:03:56,630 you all, why did you all help mr. Snowden? Vanessa: Because he needs help, and we 556 01:03:56,630 --> 01:04:12,570 were able to help him. [Applause] 557 01:04:12,570 --> 01:04:19,060 Robert Tibbo: And now after everything that's happened over the last five years, 558 01:04:19,060 --> 01:04:22,280 would you do it again? Vanessa: Yes 559 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:31,380 [Applause] Mic 7: Thank you 560 01:04:33,250 --> 01:04:37,490 Robert Tibbo: All right, we're gonna leave you, leave you for the evening, Vanessa, 561 01:04:37,490 --> 01:04:48,050 Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, Satum, Kiana. Thank you so much for showing up tonight. 562 01:04:48,050 --> 01:05:17,390 [Applause] Robert Tibbo: I need to get one more slide 563 01:05:17,390 --> 01:05:19,770 up. Herald: It's up, it's up 564 01:05:19,770 --> 01:05:23,440 Robert Tibbo: Thank you. If you go to fortherefugees site, it's a new site 565 01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:29,500 that's been launched as of today. And it has a variety of options if you'd like to 566 01:05:29,500 --> 01:05:35,010 donate. And we ask you to help. These families need help. And the money goes to 567 01:05:35,010 --> 01:05:39,400 them—it doesn't go to the lawyers, it doesn't go to administrators, it all goes 568 01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:47,820 to the families 100%. And there's Bitcoin, credit card. Tap, there, there's different 569 01:05:47,820 --> 01:05:52,320 ways you can get the cash to the families, yes. There can be telegraphic transfers, 570 01:05:52,320 --> 01:06:00,030 and somebody here in Leipzig could could accept the cash and send it on to 571 01:06:00,030 --> 01:06:05,410 fortherefugees in Montreal. And so I'll leave it at that, I think we're over time 572 01:06:05,410 --> 01:06:10,270 Herald: Yeah, we're a little bit over time. Thank you very much, once again, great 573 01:06:10,270 --> 01:06:19,210 talk [Applause] 574 01:06:19,210 --> 01:06:38,260 [Music]